Commons:Categories for discussion/2024/07/Category:Smoking (activity)

Category:Smoking (activity)

Does this category really need dab, and is "activity" the right word to use if it does? Josh (talk) 12:41, 16 July 2024 (UTC) @Infrogmation, Sbb1413, JopkeB, and Broichmore:

It seems the only real conflict is with Category:Smoking (cooking), which is also an activity though. It seems as though one of two approaches is called for here:

1. Move Smoking (activity) back to Smoking and simply use a hatnote to alert users to use Smoking (cooking) if that is what is desired.
2. Rename Smoking (activity) to a better dab term, since 'activity' doesn't really deconflict the two 'smoking' categories as they are both activities.

There seems to already be a lot of media being just added to smoking, presumably unaware of the dab, so if the dab was intended to help diffuse things, it is not working. Josh (talk) 12:52, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

@Josh  Support Option 1 – While going through the process of renaming Category:Smoking people to Category:People smoking and then Category:People smoking (activity), I find the last one superfluous, because tobacco etc. smoking is the most common meaning of the term "smoking", and we can use hatnotes for other possible meanings. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs • uploads) 13:02, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

@Sbb1413 I'm not sure what tobacco specifically has to do with it. I presume that if someone was smoking (as in burning something to inhale/consume the smoke) whatever, it would go here. There are subcats for specific things such as smoking cigarettes, pipes, etc. If a person is smoking some ham in a smoker, that is a different activity, however (even if they may enjoy the smell of the smoke from that). Josh (talk) 13:10, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

@Joshbaumgartner By "tobacco etc. smoking" , I meant "burning something to inhale/consume the smoke", which is the most common meaning of the term "smoking". Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs • uploads) 13:29, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

@Sbb1413 Yes, I think that is part of the problem, we are struggling to come up with a nice clean term to use to refer the common practice of 'smoking' versus 'smoking (cooking)'. "Activity" isn't meaningful, but no other simple term springs to mind. I've asked Crouch if they have a better term in mind, given they don't like option 1, but option 2 demands we arrive at such a term, since the current one is not useful. Josh (talk) 14:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

I also  Support option 1, I think it is the cleanest option. I likewise found no utility in the dab anyway. Josh (talk) 13:06, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't like the idea of !voting yourself. If I nominate a category for discussion, I would use {{Comment}} to show my preference instead of self-!voting. Anyway, let's wait for other users for comments. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs • uploads) 13:32, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

We don't vote in CfDs, despite the wording used in the little templates we use. We build consensus, which is a very different thing. I've presented two options that I think are reasonable, but I do have a preference for a particular one and reasons for that support. I think it is important for all participants to be able to voice their input and I don't differentiate between the users who open, discuss, or close a CfD. Josh (talk) 14:20, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

•  Oppose option 1, while the activity is more common than the cooking meaning it isn't so much more, yes its primary on Wikipedia but the threshold for primary topics for Commons categories is generally higher. Crouch, Swale (talk) 14:14, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

  @Crouch, Swale Fair enough, but in that case what term should be used to dab it? "Activity" does not add any specificity, as it still encompasses "cooking", essentially, it is no different than not having any dab at all. Josh (talk) 14:23, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

   Comment I didn't notice that "smoking" was primary on English Wiki--I don't look to them to direct our process here--but it is interesting none-the-less. I agree that our threshold is different (that is we are more likely to dab here) than there. But again, I'm only concerned with doing what is best for Commons, not emulating English Wikipedia. Josh (talk) 14:33, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not sure what the best DAB is, Category:Tobacco smoking might have been an idea but only deals with tobacco and not other things like cannabis, Category:Cigarette smoking would be another idea but again may not be fully inclusive so maybe it should just stay as is unless we can think of a better qualifier but I'd agree "activity" isn't a particularly good DAB. Crouch, Swale (talk) 14:34, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

• Most subcategories already use option #1, include some for people. The ones for "nude" people seem to use mostly #2, though I doubt any are cooking.

Enhancing999 (talk) 14:46, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

•  Support Option 1 unless some better clearer option is offered. IMO disambiguations should be offered only when something is actually ambiguous. When there is possible alternative meaning of a word, the context often serves to make clear so no additional disambiguation is needed. (For example the subject of Category:Buffalo, New York is clear; we do not need to create Wikimedia parenthetical neologisms like "Category:Buffalo (city), New York (state)".) "Activity" is not a clear disambiguation in any case - smoking food in a cooker is also an activity. -- Infrogmation of New Orleans (talk) 15:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

  The example of Buffalo, New York is not comparable because "New York" is the qualifier for "Buffalo". Together the terms make clear what is meant, even though the qualifier is not in parentheses in that case.

  When the term is a single word like "smoking," Commons is more likely to need a qualifier. It often doesn't work here to use the same primary topic concept as Wikipedia. It works on Wikipedia because the basic item is an article, which consists of text that says exactly what the article is about. If you go to the article en:Smoking for information on the food preparation method, you will quickly see that you are in the wrong place when you see that the text is about use of cigarettes, etc.

  Here on Commons, the basic item is a file, most often an image, and each file is put into one or more categories. Unlike Wikipedia articles that state what they are about, there is often nothing in an image that identifies the location depicted. (Granted, location is not the main issue with the smoking categories.) Complicating that is the fact that categories can be assigned by 1) people who don't understand the category system and 2) bots that don't even know there's a system and categorize based on individual keywords. With many images, once one is put into an incorrect category, it may stay there a very long time before anyone realizes it, especially if there is nothing in the image saying which meaning is intended. If an image comes with the description "Smoking racks of ribs," it may be put into Category:Smoking and Category:Ribs by a bot or person who doesn't know better. At least the ribs category is a dab where it can be found and corrected; "Smoking" as a category should be the same. Auntof6 (talk) 18:16, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

  Category:Buffalo is a DAB just like Category:Smoking listing the NY city and other meaning like the animals. Crouch, Swale (talk) 15:16, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

•  Support Option 2. Can we change "activity" by something like blowing, inhaling, drug(s) and/or stimulant(s)? And although I know that it is not according to Universality principle: can we leave out the additive in the subcategory names, unless it is necessary to avoid misunderstanding? (I would add it to Category:Smoking equipment‎ because there might be equipment for smoking food as well, but Category:People smoking is clear enough.) If the consensus is for Option 1: I would like to add Category:Tuxedoes in the hatnote as well, because in many countries the word "Smoking" is used and not "Tuxedoes". --JopkeB (talk) 07:07, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

  @JopkeB: I know the term "smoking jacket." Are these garments also called just "smokings" (in English)? -- Auntof6 (talk) 11:44, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

  "Smoking": at least in Dutch, German, French and Portugese. In English it is "Black tie". JopkeB (talk) 14:36, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

•  Support option 1. Keep it simple. No question which meaning is more common. - Jmabel ! talk 16:43, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
•  Support Option 1 and give the other meanings a hatnote. If you type in "Smoking" in the category bar the other ones'll come up as suggestions, and there's very little room for misunderstanding on what "Smoking (cooking)" might refer to - which can't really be said for "Smoking (activity)". Possibly as a result of this a lot of files are placed in the DAB for smoking, none of which refer to cooking (there are actually very few people featured in the "Smoking (cooking)" category, as smoking is for the most part done by a thing rather than a person) or men's formalwear. ReneeWrites (talk) 21:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)